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James, Buffing nitro is faster than polyester, especially when you work through the leveling stages like you are. Your buff time sounds right on target.

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jw ( o)===:::

Thanks, Joe. Just one of those things that legitimately had me wondering if I was on a different planet than everyone else.

BTW, if you're ever interested in making downloadable instructional video on setting up guns, shooting finish, sanding, buffing, etc, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

^^^Me too....

quietly,,,,,,,,,,,,

backs out of room,,,,,,,,,

you heard nothing,,,,, was never here,,,,,,

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jw ( o)===:::

I think this is very true, but whenever anyone tells me this, I relate a visit to a local music store that sold high end pianos. Now I don't mean to throw off on any brand, just relating the story:

Just inside the door was a brand new Yamaha baby grand, a beautiful instrument. very nice, black, and very shiny. It had a sign on it, it was on sale. Further into the showroom, the pianos got cheaper. At the back of the room were some PacRim models, not sure of the origin. But I was amazed at just how good they looked. The finish, what can I say? It was, simply put, superb in every sense of the word. Not just a high gloss, but a true depth. The kind of finish I saw on high end show cars. The kind of finish that looked like if you leaned on it, you would fall through it. A finish so good you could scarcely tell where the surface actually was, it had that much depth. Absolutely gorgeous.

Then I looked at the prices. Keep in mind, this was in 2002, so the prices are now 11 years old. Those beautiful cheapies, well you could pick up a brand new baby grand for a bit over $3,000. That Yamaha up front, it had a $9,000 discount on it. Just looking, you would be hard put to say why one cost 5 times the other even after that much discount.

A salesman came up, and I asked about the Steinways, since I didn't see any of them. He smiled, and said "We keep them in a separate room, because they're special." He then led me through a side door. What I saw took a few minutes to sink in.

What I saw were a few grands, and an upright. The grands were all black, and the salesman told me they were all finished in hand rubbed black lacquer. And nothing, I repeat nothing, had a gloss finish. Satin black, simple, elegant.

The salesman walked to the end of a Model S, looked under the lid, and smiled. "I never get tired of looking at these," he said. "Those others are pretty, but they don't compare." That Model S was on sale, regular $30,000, discounted to $27K. It was the smallest grand in the room. "This one's on sale," he told me. "Get it, and it will always be worth what you paid for it."

That to me was a real education. In that piano store, the shinier it was, the cheaper it was. And when you got up to the real high end stuff, it was satin finish all the way. The satin finish ones were high end musical instruments, the shiniest ones were basically unplayable decorations.

Just a little something I always keep in the back of my mind, because they proved to me that day that gloss ain't everything.

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

Well that's not universally true. There are plenty of extremely high dollar concert grands that have the mirror look. I'm sure we've all seen the world renowned concert Pianist having four hands!
I use to do repair work for a large music shop that had different departments. I had to walk through the area where the grand Pianos were. Of course when you see a glossy Steinway it's a pretty impressive sight, especially the Black, highly reflective finish. Unfortunately it doesn't hold the attention for very long. Everything is too homogeneous and lacks interest. You don't see the wood or even the surface of the finish. You are more likely to see what's happening at the other side of the room.
Obviously Guitars are different. Hardly any have the Black Ebonised look.
If you look at how the very good Violin makers finish you will see something entirely different. The finish has more interest and a much more tactile aspect to it. Probably most guitar makers think it's 'rough and applied in an amateurish manner'. Of course it's nothing of the sort. Violins have a different aesthetic to that of the Guitar though. That type of finish doesn't really suit relatively large, flat surfaces. In my endeavors I try to achieve something between the two (Not super glossy, nor billiard ball smooth) but I tread a fine line that doesn't always work out. It is impossible to achieve all the best aspects of the various finishes, in that sense it's all a compromise. Wax feels and handles nicely but isn't very protective. Matte finishes look warm and friendly but by their nature have less clarity. Very glossy is hard and glass like but has optical clarity, until a sheet of light hits it. I guess you choose your poison.

After seeing my first shellac finish, I was sold sold sold on non-glossy guitars.

My first 2 were shellac - french polish. I never got the hang of it, so I had to level sand and polish at the end. The level sanding of a body and neck took me about 1-1/2 to 2 hours to get through 600 grit, then polishing through 8000 grit micromesh took another 4 hours or so. I use a big brown eraser as a sanding block, except for a wood block on the head. My third is KTM-9 and I am getting ready to polish - leveling through 600 was 1-1/2 hours and it looks like it will be about the same to polish as the shellac.

Remember, Nick Lucas told Gibson he didn't want his guitars to be shiny so the stage lights wouldn't reflect in the audience's eyes.

Ed Minch

Guys, I've gotta tell ya, after a sand through, I shot a few more coats and decided to level by hand with 600. That whole 4-5 hour thing . . . Yeah. Right here. Probably three hours to level, with the poorly sprayed rim taking 3/4's of that.


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